Transcript of the Talk Radio interview with David Greenhalgh and Jeremy Kyle

Jeremy Kyle (JK): David Greenhalgh is an employment lawyer.

We’re delighted to have him on the show. David, good afternoon. How are you?

David Greenhalgh (DG): Good afternoon, very well. Thanks for having me on.

JK: Delighted. Oh, you haven’t got a beard.

DG: That’s right.

JK: Who’s your celebrity crush?

DG: Jonathan Bailey.

JK: Brilliant. Now, this is a wonderful story. Sacked Senior Executive, 58 I’ve been told, wins £3.1 million in an age discrimination case after being told by his younger boss he was an old fossil who didn’t know how to manage millennials.

Now, the reason this appeals to me, this story, is this is exactly what this bunch of young striplings say to this old fart every day. Who’s 59 on Monday.

They go, “Oh, you don’t understand Generation Z and you don’t understand, you phone up at 7.30 in the morning and you send me a text and it’s all too stressful for me.”

Is the world going soft, David?

DG: No, I just think we’re hearing about employment law working to protect people who are exposed to discrimination at work. I mean, I help a lot of employees some much younger than this chap.

JK: This chap, as you say, I think he was 58. That’s quite old, isn’t it, 58?

DG: No, not at all.

JK: Good man, great answer. Love you very much.

DG: I help lots of much younger people who face age discrimination because there are sectors where being a lot younger can be classed as being, you know, you’re too old for the role. And people are pushed out. They’re pushed out when they’ve done nothing wrong often, where their performance is excellent. It’s where they just face discrimination because people think age is a barrier to people doing a good job and it’s not.

JK: I mean, I did some work for the last few years with The Sun, Employment Roadshow, too. And one of the things we kept banging on about was the older generation and experience, actually. And there are, in fact, apprenticeships and internships for older people now in companies because companies are coming round to the belief and the understanding, David, that actually there’s nothing like experience, right?

But it does say an awful lot. You’re an old fossil. You don’t know how to deal with those poor people and you want to work three days a week because you’re very stressed and all got anxiety. I mean, there is a place for us old farts in society, isn’t there, David? Not you.

You’re young, much younger than me, but I’m old. And we do fear being pensioned off by the younger generation.

DG: It’s not only the younger generation but it could be the younger generation in the workplace. But, you know, it’s all about just making people aware that value can come from all different ages and each generation has to speak to each other at work. And that can be quite difficult sometimes.

So employers have got to educate managers about how to bring the generations together so you don’t have this type of thing happening. So you have people recognising the values of the different age ranges and that people are not over the hill, you know, in their role unless their performance is dropping, in which case it’s a performance issue.

It can’t just be age.

JK: Do you think as an employment lawyer, and this is quite wide-ranging and I know what you’re going to say but I’ve got to try anyway, do you think we’ve got to such a ridiculous point in this country, and I’ll nail my colours, I do, where we’re too scared to say an awful lot, we’re too…I mean, for example, in the old days, I don’t know, how old are you?

DG: Early fifties (smirking).

JK: Again, younger than me.

If you were rubbish at your job, you got fired. Now, oh no, you’re going to have three months off with anxiety and say that’s a…

I mean, have we become too soft, in our quest to do right by people, this is a serious question, have we gone in too much of the opposite direction to the point where you really feel like you can’t say anything at work, you can’t judge anybody, you can’t do anything.

There was this appalling story that somebody once told me, just about six months ago. A man, married man, with his kids, knew a female who was married with kids, they worked together 15 years, the world’s a different place re the workplace, she was going out to a dinner with her husband from work, she came out of the toilets in a ball gown or an evening dress or whatever and he said, “You look beautiful.” He got a written warning for objectifying her sexuality.

Is the world, in that respect from your point of view, that’s crazy, isn’t it? That’s too far.

DG: Well, I act for both sides employers and employees..

So, you know, there’s a balancing exercise here, but I think employers have to be super careful, and managers have to be super careful because people are more aware of their rights.

JK: Are they on the lookout, though, for an opportunity rather than being more aware of their rights nowadays, do you think?

DG: I don’t think most people are, no. I just think they’re more aware of their rights and if they feel harassed, and harassment is, you know, is subjective, it’s how the person feels on hearing what has been said to them.

So that’s the problem with banter because it can go badly wrong.

JK: Let’s have that chat then. So in the past, banter, right?

I remember doing a television programme years ago, and I’m not going into any detail, but it was with the ambulance service, and we did an overnight shoot with an ambulance crew and it was some of the most awful cases, right?

The banter, and there were men and women on those, was extraordinary, and they told me, the jokes and everything, that that black humour was the only way they could get through their daily job.

DG: Yes, but the problem with banter is, it’s all fine where everyone’s going along with it, but as soon as one person finds it upsetting or harassing them, then legally there’s a problem.

So it’s a very dangerous territory because you can never judge in advance how it will land, just because somebody found it acceptable last week, and they no longer do, it’s a question of, you know, was it unwanted conduct?

JK: But do you, okay, alright, you’re rolling out legal terms, but do you not think unwanted contact, if you tell somebody a joke, and they laugh, and then four weeks later you tell them another joke and they take offence, how the hell are you supposed to know that?

If you’d have laughed it off, are people looking for the opportunity to screw other people is I guess what I’m trying to say.

DG: Yes, but the law covers that, so it’s got to be unwanted, so then the employer would say, well it wasn’t unwanted because you’ve been going along with it for weeks, so it can’t suddenly be unwanted conduct.

So there is protection built in there to cover these kind of situations.

I mean this award that’s been made to Mr Larry, is massive, but that’s not the norm. These big payouts are usually where is discrimination (because it’s uncapped), and where the employee is on big money anyway, and often where they can’t work again.

That’s where you see these big payouts in the news.

JK: Obviously for you as an employment lawyer, an employment partner, Excello Law, right, if you, your business has gone through the roof in the last few years, it does highlight, I suspect, that there are more and more people bringing these cases, and I bring it back to you.

Every time I bring it back to you, you say to me, it’s the law. Do people interpret, understand or use the law more now because we’re more aware, or do you think some of them are thinking, oh, it’s a chance for a quick buck, I’ll screw somebody over?

DG: Well if somebody approaches me and says I want to bring a claim for discrimination, I’ll always say, we’re not going to run it unless we’ve got some evidence to suggest discrimination is at play. So that’s my general approach.

You know, you have to, if you’re going to bring a claim or threaten a claim, you’ve got to have the building blocks to be able to approach the employer to say, you know, I’ve been badly treated, I’ve got a potential case.

JK:I mean there are plenty of examples, and I completely agree with you, but I just wonder whether there is a soft underbelly now that wasn’t around. But I tell you what, if I get abused much more, David, by Ryan and by Jodie, and certainly by Dirty Sam, I will be coming to you and bringing a claim.

DG: You know where to find me.

JK: I do indeed my friend, thank you so much indeed. David Greenhalgh, a very interesting employment lawyer.